Tech Uncensored: The Art and Science of Building Successful Teams

Ernesto Guillermo Leal

Thank you. Thank you for having me Hessie a a privilege and an honor. So just, just as as as background, I arrived to this tool out of desperation, you know, out of well, how how do I get to the next level? And a mentor told me you need to you need to understand your strength. You don’t need to clone yourself. Into your box. And then I found the the methodology of galu and wonderful things happened. The first thing he gave me a platform for a common language. What am I good at? You know, many people. You ask them what are your talents and people look at you in these beliefs. And Peter Drucker, the master, have have written an article, seminar article called Managing Oneself in which. He he he stated that most people don’t know what their talents are and then I was given the opportunity to lead A-Team and I led the team and at the beginning I have them take the test and again we we we produce wonderful results. So I would say I’m an admin. OK. And I and I would recommend it for startups as a tool to basically find the unique talents of person and then help them match the needs of the assignment to what needs to be done to the talents and experience of the person. So hopefully. We’ll have a conversation to listen. Thank you.

Hessie Jones

No problem. Thank you. The, the one thing I do remember, I used to work in banking and we actually had an off fight for three days where we went through a whole Myers braids exercise. To understand what our MBTI score was and how that compared and contrasted to people on our team and then the next exercise, the next day was understanding how ENFJ’s and ISTJ’s actually fit. At the end of the day. Understanding who you are through those self assessments and understanding your teammates are that that is what we’re trying to get to right is is really understanding who is this individual and what’s the most likely. The fit that that individual has, or dynamics that that individual has with other people in the team that represent other different or disparate personality traits, do you agree?

Ernesto Guillermo Leal

Agree. I agree 100% and you took me down again. Memory lane. I also did the three day seminar for the my breaks in the indicator. There’s no one methodology that is a silver bullet. You you highlighted the two key element first. Know thyself. You know who? What am I good at? And. And. Again, what are my? I would say natural God-given talents. You know, and once I know them, how do I make a contribution in order to develop them into strength and and how do you know what their strength? Well, I usually use the research that claims, you know, 10,000 that 10,000 hour rule that you know the equivalent of PhD, you know, 8 hours a day during. To 40 years, nine nine, 9600 and and and then. You know that you’re very. Good at and and again. It’s a platform for other people. To know and to find how to connect and communicate with you and when we can get more into details as we as we delve into. Into the conversation.

Hessie Jones

OK, so let’s because we’re talking about the importance of team dynamics and finding you know, the right people and building your team, especially from a startup perspective. Let let’s look at this from from their point of view you you are a young startup and you can’t afford to find the right co-founder right now. You started this from scratch and so especially when it comes to technology, finding a technical co-founder is really hard. Part partly because it’s not necessarily their their idea, but they have the right skill sets that you need, and so more often than not, you end up outsourcing the talent. And So what happens is that earlier on you actually build maybe a great MVP, but then as you start to iterate and scale, this poses problems because that outsourced individual is not a member of your team. So from your perspective. How does that fit at the early stages when when we’re talking about these types of tools in in determining how and when to find that co-founder?

Ernesto Guillermo Leal

That that’s a great question. Hessie they, they there’s two sides to it, you know. And I and I will say it it depends the the 1st. Side. Is you as an entrepreneur, knowing yourself, you know and what you’re good at, and rightly so, in the example that you’re pointing out early in the start up, I I delegate or outsource. Some of the things that need to be done I I like to point out the example of Warby Parker. You know, four kids doing an MBA and trying to find a way to, you know, to generate revenues and and all of them are doing this part. And and they realize it’s kind of serendipitous that all of them wear glasses. Hey, man, you know how expensive glasses are like? And so. So they they figure, well, let’s, let’s. Really do the. Homework and and they really dug deep and. Understood that it was. Basically a monopoly. And hey man, let’s cut the middle man. Etcetera, etcetera from the very beginning, they delegated outside the all technical aspects and manufacturing to their Chinese supplier and they focused on design and actually lowering. You know, so back to the the 2nd element is well, yes, the person needs to know their talents. But as you build the relationship with the outsource and thinking again of a starter that you outsource, let’s say the coding to somebody else, I recommend running the test very early to know if the person is you know. Very similar to me or as complementary Italian. Because what’s going to happen very quickly as you do a couple of iterations of your of your MP’s or or they try to get to the next stage, you know or the next gate that you’re going to find out one or two things. We are very similar. You know we are very. Tech driven blah. Blah blah blah introverts. And nobody can sell. And then during the next gauge, you know, once we have the MVP, we need to go out and sell and find find consumer support. We’re so different that. You know, it’s a it’s a good match. Better communication is not ideal, so I recommend it to do it in in the early stages, but in in the corporation. Again, mind you that while I’m an entrepreneur and an entrepreneur, I came from many, many years of of the corporate world. And when I I had I was well into my 10th year of tenure within the company when I discovered this.

And and I took it as a startup. So you can you can do it in a corporation in any stage if you want to again up your game because you’re gonna give your team tools to understand themselves and make the team more effective. But in the case of startups, I recommend you to do it as soon as they become familiar with the with the tool.

Hessie Jones

OK, I want to kind of use your expertise in market. To address this, because you also worked in Consumer Packaged Goods and there was an example that was cited by and this is, this is more of a case study around Pepsi and and the idea that because of the lack of diversity. Within the team, something did not get executed properly. So back in 2017, Pepsi released this commercial featuring Kendall Jenner and back then. If you remember. Black Lives Matter had a huge, huge presence within within the media stream, and so it depicted Kendall Jenner joining a protest and she handed Pepsi to an officer to convey this message of unity. Piece. So the ad actually faced enormous criticism. Backlash for being tone deaf and Co opting protest movements like Black Lives Matter in in a way that was insensitive to sell their soda. So Pepsi quickly pulled back the ads, saying that they missed the mark. And they shouldn’t have done. That way. So the point of this is that as you know, when you’re developing ad campaigns, it goes through enormous approval levels. Like I say, almost 50-60 rounds of approval until you get the message right. At the end of the. Day. It it was wrong and there was widespread criticism that it was ill conceived and that there lacked this diversity within the team to actually develop an ad that the public really cared about. So my question to you as someone who’s worked in this space and somebody who’s probably seen these types of mistakes, tell me about diversity in thought in representation when it comes to making decisions. And why does something like this happen? Even at the most, I would say advanced organizations that seem to have built the right teams.

Ernesto Guillermo Leal

Yes, thank you. Thank you. And lovely question, because what happens with time has is that corporations, you know, they they might recruit for diversity of all types. I I like to say diversity of thinking, you know, and diversity of all representation but with time because of of cultures that are very strong. Like would argue. So most 1400 companies have very strong cultures and and very strong ethics for hiring, training, you know etcetera. But if it gets to the point where they stop, I would say they stop listening to the outside and start listening to themselves. So it is in that in inside you know you can look at that as a great example of. The consumer didn’t have a seat. On the table and. And and rightfully so you say and you would your experience and mine, you know, you go through 60 iterations. Interestingly, the corporation had the the the the the Fortune to to work for those Procter and Gamble had a mantra, which is consumer is the boss, you know, and we many times had a a real physical caught out of three ladies. You know Maria Rosa and Ortensia, you know, 3 flowers. And or and and we had a cut out real life. So every time we sat sat down in the meeting, we will put them there to say what? What would she think, you know? And the ideas then go out. Unless we had a real feedback from people you know and understand understood the the pain point so so it’s not surprising and it’s it’s not the last time. That is going to happen is going to continue. To happen, and especially in in large large corporations and and again, let it be a learning for startups. You know, consumers, the boss, you know, are you really, are you really, really excited by the idea or is the idea solving a real problem for real consumers? You know, because we do one of the some of the things that I always, you and me. And and in the tech space and try to mentor these people there. And I’m with an. Idea which might be a great. Idea but doesn’t have a true consumer solution, is not addressing a real problem and and it’s hard only need to do it sometimes. We just not necessarily burst their bubble, but point them in the direction of addressing. And again, I love the question because we we it’s so hard for us to put the, the, the magnifying glass on ourselves, you know, are we considering all thinking and avenues to to validate that this is a a really good idea and product for. Who matter most, which is the consumer. Does that make sense?

Hessie Jones

Yeah, it does. And I think the because like you said, the consumer doesn’t have a seat at the table. It’s incumbent upon upon founders to ensure that there’s advocacy in the room for the for the people that will end up making you money, right? Making making the product work so.

Hessie Jones

They will let me. Let me let me add one more. They will be willing. Unable to pay a premium if you’re solving a pain that nobody has addressed, the way you’re addressing.

Ernesto Guillermo Leal

Yes. And I and I think at the end of the day, everybody realizes that, hey, I I didn’t just fall in love with my solution thinking that there is a potential solution for my problem. There. I’m actually sorry. I’m actually developing a solution that people want right? And so by ensuring that you do have that diversity of thought, then you’re growing your company the right way and you’re making sure that you’ve done all the right things to. To develop that product market fit so. Thank you. Thank you for that. So. I’m going to. Talk about the the difference between human judgment and something like a gallop strength Finder. When when we’re talking about teen fit, I’m still having a hard time figuring out whether or not something like this is going to. Really overturn a decision that I’m going to make at the end of the day. Why? Why do you have? Why do you? Like these types of tools.

Thank you. So basically, historically what what are the the criteria you you have chemistry, is it the right fit you know is this person the the right fit for the culture and for the problem that I’m trying to solve and that there is coming three. So there’s like 3:00 so at the end of the day is is personal judgment you know. And and these ads. This is not the only tool I’m an advocate, but as you say, there’s minor breaks you. At AH, I would say the numbers component data component that help us get. In addition of having a language, I’m not saying you’re gonna adopt this as the as the only tool you’re gonna use it to complement with a with a metric. You know, that gives you understanding of ohh wow, this person is a listener. This person is, you know, like me and a ideation he’s a whole a connector of people. And I’m gonna have him in sales or I’m in. I’m gonna have him, you know, reach to key stakeholders. You know well, he’s he’s had experience and he has the talent and the passion for that. You know it. It makes it easier. So. So I’m an advocate because of that. It provides the to answer your question some numbers, a metric that can help us guide and a language that can help guide the decision. In addition to the to do the things that we talked about you know the the the human judgment. The chemistry they fit with the culture and and the the the, the expertise for what the what job needs to be done.

Hessie Jones

OK, so let’s get into the I guess the the nitty gritty of the tool itself. So how does it actually? Identify and categorize some of these individual strengths. How reliable is it to when, when we actually validated against other other tools out there?

How do you validate it? First go back and and a little bit.

Well, first, first, first. Yes. The first half is to categorize how does it categorize some of these individuals, strengths and weaknesses like in a way that allows us to to. Yeah. You know team dynamics. Or or even how it relates to. To how we make decisions within teams.

Ernesto Guillermo Leal

Right. So so for for people that doesn’t have background on, on, on this to the gallop have been doing this since the 1950s or something like that and it’s gaining popularity again because there’s not many tools like this to provide insights as to to what what are your specific talent. So you you take an online test you know? And then it has 34 guiding talents and those 34 guiding talents are kind of arranged into four buckets, you know. Power of execution, power of relationship. Power of minds. It’s like 4 leadership staff and and the data and. And rightfully you you highlighted at the beginning of of of this interview that the data says that the more diverse the thinking of of the team the better the results. This because they have this map of the 34 talents, and I personally have used it like like I said many many times but in a couple of organizations where the talents were either skewed towards one side, you know you have a lot of strategic thinkers, but you don’t have a lot of people with with. Executing or or relationship building and you know it it it takes you know, a variety of talents and we were able to actually take action to recruit and hire people that had those complementary talents. So does doesn’t answer your question that that’s that’s the way they are they.

Hessie Jones

Yeah, I yeah, I think so. From from. If you provide an example, let’s say what successful teams have effectively like leveraged the insights that you find and let’s say strength Finder or other tools to complement each other’s strengths, what what would you? What examples would you come up with?

Ernesto Guillermo Leal

Are group, you know? Oh, I I have a a good example. It’s very well documented and keep people can can actually look it up online. I was positively impressed when I read Ray Dalio’s book principles that in when his chapters he as part of the body of tests they do once the person has been accepted. They they take all have people take all these psychometric tests, including the gallop strengths and what they do is they create something like a collectible baseball cards or soccer cards. In the front you have the person name and picture, but in the back it has the different psychometric tests they have the the Gallup strength, you know the top five strengths they have the major brakes and and they also have the projects and work experience that the person has, you know, and raise value claims that has been game changing. For them, because once when they’re they’re. They’re engaging in a. New client or they’re about to tackle a new challenge. The leader can actually pick and choose, you know, from the battery of of of talents, diverse talents they have in their, in their organization and practice, you know superior high performing teams. So that’s an example. I think for me highlights and. And underscores the importance of understanding people’s talent and and they use in particular of the gauge strength Finder as as a tool for for assembling high performing teams.

Hessie Jones

OK, so I. Want to be a little bit of a devil’s advocate here in in determining whether or not these tools? Or are effective, especially when it comes to and I’ve highlighted this like the oversimplification of of human traits. So we have personalities, we have strengths, we can categorize them into a bucket, but there are nuances in all of this, right? When it comes to human behavior, when it comes to potential when it comes to, you know, when it comes to everyday, everyday situations among. Can these tools adequately respond to things when it comes to chemistry or relationships over the course of, let’s say, a tenure between, let’s say, two people within the company? I.

Ernesto Guillermo Leal

I love that that question and and again it it’s it’s a complex answer because we have like you say each each human is is unique OK. We have your challenges. We have our personal experience, but it’s up to the leader, OK to understand each individual and try to get the best out of them. You know, emotional intelligence. And I I’m glad you included the tenure. OK. And let’s take again our audience, hopefully. Are mostly start, so you start as. The founder. You use the. Stool and you find you know a right match in a Co founder or Co founders and then we start the thing and again the cycles. They’re very rapid cycles to get to the next gate in a in a startup you know you’re in ideation then you’re in prototyping this product development and then you basically go to market. And and you start fixing things. And interestingly, each one of the of the of the founders have to grow in their roles. Some of them will not grow, you know, some of them will stay behind and and only those who are have the stamina, emotional intelligence and all those traits that you signaled before will reach the top. Because not everybody will. Will will go on that journey. So is is the is the goal strength I predictor of that or are the other tools. I would say no. Because like you said, people are complex. But again, at the beginning it provides a foundation for the individual and the organization to best man. Those talents, passions, and skills to their jobs that needs to be done and and people will will develop their their talents and strengths given the appropriate exposure. You know those that have, I would say, faster learning cycles will capitalize and really learn from them and and. And will help the corporation take their the the the business to to new heights and others will stay in, in, in position or will leave the organization. Now Theorizations are also living organisms and and people will come in and come out, but it it’s OK. It’s part of of of the life cycle of a start up and a business.

Hessie Jones

So from your perspective and it, it seems like it’s a good basis to to develop that foundation over time that you’re saying human judgment needs to needs to be like still like the majority of how we make decisions about people. Overtime. Let’s just assume that AI is going to take over the world, which we it probably will at some point in time and everybody’s going to be looking for faster ways to try to minimize risk to the organization. So if I if I know that, let’s say there’s a performance gap or I can sense. Based on somebody’s behavior, which we’re now getting into privacy, which really freaks me out, but let’s just say that based on somebody’s behavior, they seem less engaged or, you know, based on our interactions, they’re not responding properly. That to to me in a way that I. I think that, you know, they seemed they seem. Kind of bored of their job or. They’re not as happy. So from the perspective of data, all these things things can get captured eventually, even outside of what this gallop strength Finder tool is right now. And let’s assume it does evolve into that. How important is that to to? An organization. That that has now the ability to kind of knit these things in the bud before they end up spiraling out, out of control from a data perspective. From a data perspective, I think it’s important from a founder perspective, I would assume that they they find value in it, but I want your opinion on how. Let’s say the next 10 years could be especially with these types of tools and and data being collected everywhere.

Ernesto Guillermo Leal

Thank you. Thank you for the perspective. Well, it’s a, it’s a great question because there’s, there’s the the side of the scare, you know? Oh my God, AI is gonna, you know, take all over. The world. And then I I am. My personal opinion is that they they they’re just tools, tools to make us more productive. I love the analogy of of Steve Jobs. You know when it first. Apple came out, you know. A human can run, can work, and then gets on a bicycle. The technology is the bicycle that enables you to get, you know, farther and faster to other places. He he made the same thing analogy with the computer. So AI is just a tool. As we start using and collecting more data to the point where all of these typographic and psychometric. Are going to be loaded and you can actually predict what with with certain certainty you know persons that are going to be a good. Match for the role. Ohh you. You can always in in my opinion have to have the human touch and the human essence. You know you can learn so many many things right now nowadays with the YouTube and TikTok and Instagram. You know basically you can have a university at your disposal. But I like to. On the on the anecdotes of. Socrates, Plato and Aristotle, you know the only way we know Socrates is because Plato wrote about Socrates and and mind you that when when the when the time that Socrates was alive writing was a new technology and he despised, he says it doesn’t allow me. To do the Socratic Socratic method of question and answer your question and answer. To help you. Find the the the solution so he despise that technology and then he, you know, taught Plato, Plato told Aristotle it’s and Aristotelis was the the professor of Alexander the Great Knowledge. There’s many, many many experiences. So he gets to the point that that my professor is, you know the an AI. And then YouTube and videos etcetera. But you need that that personal feedback, engagement, emotional. Change that up to up to now. In the next 10 years, I don’t think we’re gonna. We’re gonna reach it. You need also that human human touch. Data is great. You know, to as a predictive tool and and that can help you do many, many things. But they know that they will designing product services for human beings, you know to improve their lives. You touch that life so. That’s my opinion and I’m sticking to it.

Hessie Jones

So you you have also we we know that these personality these traits that individuals have they’re not static they evolve over time even individuals learn from their own. Misbehaviors. But but you also believe. That that it can help you as an individual develop your strength. So can you give the example I know you had told me earlier about Michael Jordan. Can you get can you explain how he has used it to his?

Ernesto Guillermo Leal

Yes, it’s certainly it’s a, it’s an example that usually for for for these type of tools, the analogy is is sports because again they have a lot of data. So Michael Jordan, you know he was a, I would say an average player when he was in high school and then it’s legend that he was caught up from the team. So you wanna when exercise and and develop his his talents as a as a as a basketball player and Oh my God during his tenure. He was the the the goat. You know, the greatest of all time, you know, during his time. But then he decides, you know, for whatever personal reasons he’s gonna go into baseball, you know. Well, it turns out, you know, the muscles that you need for baseball are completely different. And he was placed in AA team for all the reasons. Well, and so on. He wasn’t as effective, you know. Had he stayed there for the number of, Umm, had educated the hours he might have developed because his natural talents were first in basketball and and second, he had to spend so. Many the the the, the, the 10,000 hour rules, you know so many cycles that he was a master at his class, but the same happens with individuals. So you are who you are, OK? In essence. And you learn tools so that the essence the the with the building, this tool it is it gives you the essence of who you are. You know what I’m I’m an extroverted. From an ideation? And this is the way you produce results. The key. The key here is you have. Now a tool to tell you the most effective and efficient way in which you produce results. Now extrapolate that to a team you know, if you know each person’s natural talents and strength, and how more effective and efficiently they produce results as a leader, you’re better able to assemble a team. I I Dover slow Dover highlight high performance thing because in the beginning of of the of the project you have a guy like like me, you know and Ernesto with the ideation and then the the energy to engage his stakeholders. But then when we go. To the phase of execution and maybe you you have a master executed, so you’re passing the baton from stage to stage to the person that can really deliver outstanding results and that is that is the beauty of of this tool and and the analogy of Michael Jordan because you have a real life example of somebody who had. Tremendous talents in one area and then strengthened, then went to another area with a I’ll say very little level of expertise and was was doing very good. They just decided to to come back to. He tested and said, you know what my strengths are in this area, let me. Go back.

Hessie Jone

That’s actually a a good idea. It’s it’s. It’s almost validating who you are and not necessarily the person you want to be. Because I think sometimes when you when you decide, hey, I want to go in. A different direction and you. Just don’t have the chops for it. And you can’t make money out of doing that new role. You end up defaulting back into the person and the skill sets that you already have and. I think it’s the. Big I I guess it it’s it’s for for me or for anybody that that thinks like that they can. Do so much. And then they realize that they can’t. Then you know, it’s a realization that that maybe these tools will give me exactly what I need in order in order to make. It better for myself make it better for the team and and. And you’re right. It’s it’s it’s something that hey, I have to live with. These are my strengths. These are my weaknesses. This and I can play within the sandbox. I can have motivations to do better, but understand that in order for me to perform, these are the things that I. Should rely on.

Speaker 2

Totally, totally, totally. You mean you mentioned something else? That is is is struck a chord which is especially when you are being pressed for time or your stress, you tend to revert back to the way you naturally operate. And and knowing that that is the way you operate it is liberating, you know? And I know that when I’m stressed, I’m gonna generate ideas to get out of the jam. I’m going to connect with someone to help me do this. I’m gonna communicate it in the written and and then I’m going to make a prototype, and then I’ll ask for feedback. Everyone has a different way to. What do I yeah.

Hessie Jones

Yes. No, I agree. So I I want you to give me some some closing thoughts in terms of what, So what does this balance look like between tools and human judgment and when should stuff like this be useful for organizations?

Ernesto Guillermo Leal

Yeah, so so, first, again, I’m gonna. There’s there’s two sides. And per side, our audience is our textiles. So I believe there’s an underutilization instead of of these tools. That have value. They’re relying basically on human judgment, you know, is this chemistry is their fit. They do, they have the. Technical skills to solve the problem. You know, giving and using these tools, whatever they are, again, I recommend highly recommend the Gallup strength Finder to as a way to open the communication and understand and enhance their recruiting the process so that that’s one side and in in large organizations they’ve been using several tools for for many, many years. I was working enough to to work in organizations that. Have the tools or allow them to allow you to if you found a tool that you think it was helpful to make yourself and your team more effective than and efficient, you know there’s there’s a myriad of of tests there, but I highly recommend it to startups because again, just to give them more data in order to make better decisions. In assembling their teams successfully.

Hessie Jones

I think you you wrapped it up really nicely. Thank you so much for joining me today. So I appreciate your time. I hope you had a great conclusion that you understand the value of human human judgment and that we’re not going to displace humans anytime soon. So I think that from from that perspective we need.

Hessie Jones

We need human contacts, human experience, human understanding in order to in order to actually. Make things better for us at. The end of the day so thank. You. So for for our audience, thank you for joining us today. Tech Uncensored is powered and produced by altitude. Later and is hosted on Spotify. My name is Jesse Jones, and until next time have fun and stay safe.